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Mississippi - state of mind
We had a couple of comments in another thread that concerning the MS state flag. Many of the statements in the post are misleading and others clearly incorrect. As I live on the AL MS border I thought a little history correction is in order.
MS had a referendum on the state flag in April 2001. The results were along the racial Mix in the state. For removal 36% against 64%.
The confederate flag changed in its short history. The battle flag was used for only 4 years and was not the confederate flag, but only the battle flag of the confederate. The original flag of MS was the blue bonnie, a star in a blue background adopted in 1810. In 1861 the blue bonnie was placed in the corner and the magnolia was added to a white background. This remained through the war and until 1894. We now have the current flag with the battle cross in the corner. Why was it changed?
The major corner stone of the 1860 election was the issue of slavery. When the Republicans won the seven highest slave holding states seceded. In these states the slave to free population was nearly one to one. In MS the ratio was about 1.25 slaves for each person and one half the families owned slaves. In the confederate south as a whole thirty one percent owned slaves. About forty six percent of the population in the confederate States were slaves.
In 1860 the per capita income of the whites in the southern states was double that of the northern none slave holding states. Basically you earned the wages of the slaves. The prospect of loosing half your wages was a strong motivator to go to war.
WW “For Christ sake, 99% of the boys who fell under the Red & Gray had no idea what a slave was, never owned a slave, couldn't have owned one if they wanted to and were dying for their State and not for anything to do with Slavery.”
Well with 46 percent of the population being a slave and one in three families owning one it seems unlikely that a southern soldier did not know what one was or believe they were not fighting to preserve their way of life, base on free labor.
WW “It shows the same type of disagreement to the Stars and Stripes as did the Stars and Stripes did to the Union Jack.”
What do you think happened to the people that flew the old red white and blue union flag after the revolution? About 10% of the people were forced to leave due to persecution and Lynchings.
WW “The Red and Gray is a Battle Flag, a flag that many thousands died defending. That is reason enough it should have respect.”
The Nazi German flag was also a flag that many died for a morally wrong cause. Is that reason enough to respect it? It is also used by racists is I guess this does not tarnish its function in your eyes either.
Ex 21:6 "Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.” The eighteenth and nineteenth century slavers bought and sold kidnapped people, these were not people who sold themselves into slavery.
Racism is alive and well in MS. My kids had a friend attacked with a shovel on the 4th of last month, in the middle of the day and at a festival. A 200+ 17 year old and his friend decided to try and take the head off my daughter’s friends 13 year old little brother (maybe 110 lb). He was just walking up the road with his sisters and my daughter. The boy is mulatto. Despite the a deep bruise on his back and a bunch of witnesses. The local sheriffs and police closed ranks and refused to do anything. I overhead the local police conspiring with the 17 year olds parents and said something. Naturally he offered to throw me in jail.
Basically many still believe they have the right to do what they please because of color of skin.
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Mississippi - state of mind
Denis: Yes it goes on and in smaller communities than up north and by both colors of skin.
WW: My data was from the US census of 1860. Major numbers are from the census directly. The percentage of families with slaves comes from the individual town records. If you go thought the individual census records you have the owner and the number and names of the slaves owned. I did not do this directly but got numbers from someone that did.
Winston County in AL and one other seceded from the Confederate. They county had few slave owners and did not what to have anything to do with the war or succession. I am not sure what other counties in the Confederacy did so, but I assume that the decision was discussed openly as it was in Winston county. Winston County has a play based on history and plays it every summer on a weekly basis. You might say they are proud of the fact they did not want the war and why. You might also say that this was publicized at least in AL. No I know that many knew what was going on. Yes there were those that were just caught up with the fervor, just as many were in the Nazi cause. When you are indoctrinated from youth it is difficult to shed the blinders. We met one in South America that had 3 tanks shot out from beneath him on the Western front. When he found out what Hitler was doing to the Jews etc. he left the country and never returned. He said it was like scales falling from his eyes. I have met another from the western front since. Some never saw the light and still believe in Arian superiority.
“I know you will argue with me about the symbol of a Flag, so does that mean you support Flag Desecreation? It doesn't matter what your views are, the Flag is sacred to those who have and are serving her. The Flag to me is Mountains, Streams, green grass and home, Applle Pie, Baseball, Hot dogs and freedom. To others, it is something else. I serve the flag and my views are second rate to those who have not served it. How funny. they feel they are entitled under free Speech to shit on it, piss on it or whaever. your views please, you seem to hold no sacredness in a flag.”
De 4:23 – 25 Be careful not to forget the covenant of the LORD your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the LORD your God has forbidden. For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. After you have had children and grandchildren and have lived in the land a long time-- if you then become corrupt and make any kind of idol, doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God and provoking him to anger.
As a Christian why would I care if someone takes his own possession and destroys it? What do I care if it represents America neither the flag nor the country is an idol to me. I am not allowed to make idols of anything. Nothing is important, nothing is sacred in this world but Christ and him crucified. I think it is a nice symbol and don’t even like to hang mine on the flag pole to get ravaged by the wind, sun and rain, but sorry in the next life it will not be important, nor should it be to any Christian in this.
Think about what you are saying. “I know you will argue with me about the symbol of an idol, so does that mean you support idol Desecreation? It doesn't matter what your views are, the idol is sacred to those who have and are serving her. The idol to me is Mountains, Streams, green grass and home, Applle Pie, Baseball, Hot dogs and freedom. To others, it is something else. I serve the idol and my views are second rate to those who have not served it. How funny. they feel they are entitled under free Speech to shit on it, piss on it or whatever. your views please, you seem to hold no sacredness in an idol.
An indentured servant is not the same as a slave. You were not born into slavery. Your children were not born to be traded. Your family was not ripped apart for financial benefit of the people. The man did not have total control of your reproduction and family. Slavery was outlawed by the church and was non existent in Europe, prior to trade with Africa.
I do not know where you got the idea that the blacks were sold into slavery. Maybe at first, but when the majority were moved they were basically kidnapped. A village was attacked but armed slave traders and the health taken into slavery. The forts along the coast which look like castles were designed like large prisons. They held the slaves in chains until the ships came to load them for the voyage. My facts could be wrong, but I have talked with my friends from Nigeria, Sierra Leone and Ghana.
I was talking with a friend of mine who is a black MS general contractor. He made the statement that I was a slave. I said what do you mean, slavery ended in 1864-5. He said when he was a child his father was a share cropper. The whole family had to work to bring in the cotton. One year all the kids were sick with the flu and running fevers. The man came and told his father he had to get the kids out and pick cotton. His father argued but had no choice, all the kids got out in the field, although some passed their lunch. This was in the late sixties. I don't know anyone in his family that is lazy.
The old share cropper’s houses are still standing in some areas and so are the mansions. A share cropper’s house was not much different than a slave’s and neither was the work or the demands.
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Mississippi - state of mind
EW: Prejudism takes on all forms in this country. Anytime you say we are the best, some else must be second best.
In N England we rented, lived and worked in 4 little towns. All of these towns would have been in the same school district where I grew up. People in each small town would talk bad about the other town. If you were from one of the other towns they had nothing to do with you. If you were from some other area, forget it. In KY I found the same thing although they were spread a little wider and were alot more accepting of someone from another area.
In AL and MS there is a lot of rivalry between schools but less bad mouthing towns of the other towns. Racism is bad in MS and in parts of AL. Being from the north or anywhere else is not good. Why are you here has been a question all over the US.
In B.C. where I grew up people were from all over. I new people from AL, OR and MS in my church. I never remember any conflict. Like when I return people what to know what AL is like.
As a Christian this is a problem in the US as we are told to Heb 13:2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it. This was so important in the first church that Roman governors fed them to the lions, because they were unnaturally friendly to strangers and foriegners.
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Mississippi - state of mind
EW: The question why are you living here? Only indicates that we are not following what we are commanded to do as Christians and have no concept of what it means to be a Christian.
If you are not comfortable about talking about the most important aspect of your life, you might need to rethink your objectives and priorities.
WW: Patriotism is a better word, but does not change the reality of what is happening.
You are off by a factor of 10 on your number of slaves from the census. There were more than that in MS alone, something like 450,000.
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Mississippi - state of mind
WW: I am not sure why you can not find the data the 1860 data is below from the government site. The % families that have slaves is a little more difficult as you need to review individual county returns. An example on the web is. www.usgennet.org/usa/region/southeast/ncmacon/1860/1860ss.html
I have always wondered why anyone was fooled by the likes Baker or Swaggart. Unfortunately, “Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to a garage makes you an automobile, but public definite enlistment for Christ makes you a Christian.” Billy Sunday
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Mississippi - state of mind
WW: Your original statement was "“For Christ sake, 99% of the boys who fell under the Red & Gray had no idea what a slave was, never owned a slave, couldn't have owned one if they wanted to and were dying for their State and not for anything to do with Slavery.”
You also stated that there were 8,099,760 in the south and 384,000 slave owners. My calculation are more like 394,000 but enough said about that. 384,000/8,099760 is what percentage? I calculate near 5%. As only men went to war and in that day and age men held most of the wealth you could say near 10 percent of the men owned slaves. The number of people in the south does not represent house holds. If we assume the average house hold at the time was 5 then we have 2 million people in house holds with slaves and this is close to the stats I found gave of 33%. This is much different than 1%.
In the state in question MS, there were 450,000 slaves and 300,000 non slaves. There were about 31,000 slave holders. Again assume household averages of 5 you have 155,000 which is similar to the data I provide of 50%. Actually the number of families was 63,015.
I might be just the majority of the young men going to war were not the head of their own households and called to go to war, but the household I grew up in is slave based one. The society in which I live was slave dependent. They were living off the profit of a slave based economy. Like I stated in a county like Winston AL there was debate and rejection of the concept that they should go to war for the slaveholders.
EW and Ken; "Why are you here?" can be asked in many ways, but I don't remember anyone asking this question to someone from another country living in Canada. Your not from around here are you? Is basicly the same question although a little more direct and not necessarily directed to someone from another country, just anyone with a different accent.
If you look at the 1860 census from MS you had 750,000 people. Last census we had 2.85 million, therefore the population has only increased 4 times in 140 years. As the world population has increase about 4X in the last 50 years and the US population is 11 times since 1860 we can only assume that a lot of people have moved from MS to other territories, including Canada in the last 140 years. If Mississippians are migrating to other areas of North America for 140 years, why shouldn't someone migrate to MS? I don't know some of this might be an inferiority complex. I think I have been posed the question in both ways. Your not welcome and how could you be so stupid as to move here.
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Mississippi - state of mind
I don't understand your math or logic.
In the seven states that succeeded first SC 26701 slave holders and 58642 families or 46%, GA 41084 slave holders and 109910 families or 37%, AL 33730 slave holders and 96603 families 35%, MS 30993 slave holders and 63015 families or 49%, LA 22033 slave holders and 74725 families or 29%, TX 21878 slave holders and 76781 families or 28%, FL 5152 slave holders and 15090 families or 34%. 494766 families and 181521 slave holders or 37%
The states that seceded after attack of fort Sumter are: VA 26%, NC 28%, TN 25%, and AR 20%. 533192 families and 135111 slave holders or 25%.
In the Confederacy 1027958 families and 316632 slave holders or 31%
WW "For Christ sake, 99% of the boys who fell under the Red & Gray had no idea what a slave was, never owned a slave, couldn't have owned one if they wanted to and were dying for their State and not for anything to do with Slavery.”
Basically one third of the families in the south owned slaves. If you considered extended families, aunts, uncles and grandparents there were few counties where everyone did not have contact with slaves in their immediate families. I doubt anyone in a grey uniform did not know that this war was concerning slaves and the ability to own them.
Slave families were not counted, they were never even given last names and many took the names of their slave holders after the war. I showed you in the link to the data from VA. If you look in the cemeteries and I don't need to go too far in this county, the black and white family names are the same.
I agree that the bulk of the enlistment would have come from the poorer segment of society, but the south was twice as wealthy as the south, at least concerning the men that counted (i.e. white). It seems to me that you subscribe to the trickle down theory of economics of the republicans of late so we can assume that they were fighting to keep their money and way of life. Would not the average soldier in the Confederacy have greater wealth than the north? Many in the north enlisted in the north for the money, I am not sure this was the case in the south.
The election prior to the war was fought over slavery, Lincoln was known as an abolitionist, all you need to do is go and read some of his speeches from the campaign trail. The southern 7 state seceded soon after he won.
If you look at the battles in the civil war and the number of hours that soldiers had to sit around and talk or march and talk. You believe that 99% of them had no idea what the war was about and had no idea what slavery was about? The field commanders in the war were not sitting in a bunker 100 miles from the front, but riding a horse in front of the troops.
Call me simple, but the Confederacy lasted four years, before this time the States were part of the US and after this time they were part of the US, why are these states promoting a battle flag of a failed revolt unless it is in defiance of the union? You might say it is in respect of the soldiers that fought, but the average guy in the south with the Southern Cross on the truck is not showing respect for the fallen any more than the white supremacist is wearing the swastika for the fallen Germans.
Now for the kicker, what MS state flag? The bill in 1894 making it the official flag was rescinded in 1906 and no flag has been legislated to replace it or make it official again. Law suits to remove it have been thrown out as there is no legal flag (see below).
In MS little had changed since slavery in the 1950’s for the black population. As my friend stated he was a slave. When the Brown decision came down they decided to make the Sovereignty Commission (1956) to combat the integration. They were allowed to use any measure necessary to prevent the intrusion of the federal government. To a greater or lesser extent you had state funded terrorism. During integration the use of the battle flag reappeared and therefore it is associated with racism like it or not.
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Mississippi - state of mind
WW: You do not know what you are talking about. In the census a household is one family. The head of the household filled out the statistics for the census. One head of house hold means one family. Even if the person is single but is the head of a house hold he is counted as a family. If there are 63 thousand households and 31 thousand slave holders in MS then where do the extra slave holders go? How does 49% become 1%? The only way the stats could be skewed the way you are proposing was if there were a lot of corporations which held slaves. This was not the case in 1860. There was no reason to incorporate a business and most if not all were family farms.
I know statistics and have studied math far beyond where you finished off. You have not shown me to be wrong, only how pig headed you are.
Personally I could care less that you and your family were in the US military. Like the 4 years of the civil war is this the only experience that guides the rest of your life? Is this your shining achievement? Who told you that you deserve special treatment because of it? Who told you, you were special in some way? Who told you that you have special knowledge because of your experience? Who told you that you were better than I? Members of family have served in the military since the French and Indian wars. The Vietnam War was over before I was of age and I injured my knee smoke jumping while serving the state in college. I led teams of men in the woods and everything under the sun was discussed to kill time. Maybe you were part of a stupid platoon? Some of the crews I led were work release from the Pen. I find it hard to believe that marines are stupider than cons, but you said it not I.
You call me a parakeet. I was trained to think, problem solve and create new ideas. I have patents, thesis and papers that state that this information is new and no one in the world has thought of this before. Do you? Or are you just parroting what you have read, been told and fit with your point of view. I am willing to change my mind if you can show me where I am wrong. You have not, nor do you seem capable. You fault my source of data, mainly the University of Virginia stats. What source are you using and what slant does it have? The one bit of information you posted has nothing to do with the question.
If one in three in the south is from a slave holding family what is the probability that just one in one hundred dies on the battle field? What is the probability that one in one hundred has no idea what a slave is? I can do the math for you but you obviously can not comprehend.
Posted below someone’s calculations that confirm the estimates and number I posted. Sorry to be so obstinate but I live and work here. I have been here far longer than EW and I am near the prairie where the slave holders mainly where. I deal with the problems that were not resolved 140 years ago every day. I have discussed the flag on the back of the truck with natives in MS. In fact I had the discussion with a young man a week and a half ago and last week with some one from South Carolina last week on a plane.
Denis: I am sorry this post has spread out so long and degraded to name calling. I have tried to stay above that, but WW has started to use my name and my God’s name in vain. Which is has end in other threads so a guess it can be expected. Those that forget history are destined to repeat it. I have studied a lot of history both in university and on my own. Most of history in the text book is a white washed version of the truth. Few scholars give the facts and present war as it is, a messy and dangerous affair where stupidity and indecision abound. For example we all learned about the war of 1812. Some from one side some from the other. Pierre Berton wrote a scholarly book called “Flames Across the Border”. It details the conflict and the actions on both sides. If you read it you arrive at the conclusion that both sides were a bunch of Pratts and it is a wonder that anything was ever resolved. The stupidity was not just the politicians, but extended to all levels of the military. On both sides it is considered a victory in the school texts.
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Mississippi - state of mind
WW: So where did you come up with an estimate of 1 % not knowing anything about slavery? Show me the data. Nothing you have written to date has any validity and you have not presented where you have found your so called data or the logic behind your conclusion. Yet you have continually attacked my logic and data.
Did you get beyond highschool math? Did you get beyond 4th year college calculus? Did you get to graduate school stat and advanced math classes? What school did you graduate from? If so I retract my statement. If not my statement stands.
Show me how you got your numbers and quit telling me that my assumptions are wrong. Where are your statistics backing your statements?
Did you look at the logic behind the numbers in the posted link. Yes there are assumptions and yes I know there are errors in the data. In a poll of 9 million people the errors will tend to average out. The answers might be one or 2 points off, but 30 as you claim seems hard to believe?
Concerning marines, you are like most I have met, right when wrong, always prepared for a fight and never willing to back down. Very predictable. In high school we thought it was sport to go down to the city and kick marine ass so we could be carded, sent home and have the marine in irons and have to admit he was thumped by a 16 year old. From my point of view you were better with one of me than at 10 marines of the marines I met. You were the one that start denigrading people who where non military.
You stated that I knew nothing about what men talk about in camp etc and there is no way they would talk about the reasons for the war and slavery. I am stating that in the logging camps and fire camps we did talk about such things. Naturally I can underestimate the intelligence of the average US or confederate military person.
You stated you have studied civil war history and as a Ph.D. nothing I say is valid as I have not an expert in civil war history. Do you know what Ph.D. stand for? So you read a few books and you are now an expert? Where is your data to back your claim. Where is your degree in history? Or are a few diaries and the odd book the whole basis of your opinion? How have you trained your mind to think critically about what is presented? From what I have read here?
I am not your average school boy. I paid my way through school doing jobs that made being a being a marine in Vietnam look safe. What draft did I avoid? There was no draft for me. I looked into military flight training after college, but would not be accepted due to my bad knee.
By the way we mixed napalm to start fires and used exposives in the woods on other jobs. Not the most dangerous material I have worked with.
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Mississippi - state of mind
WW: Now you call me a liar. To what level won’t you stoop?
You claim to have six years post secondary education. Did you finish anything? This came up before and you made some off handed statement. With the way you write I would need to see the degree to believe it. What school let you through?
Any of the stats I have seen place the literacy in the South for the white population at greater than 80% in 1960. Why do you think they placed literacy demands at polls in MS after 1877. If the total man power was between 1.2 million and 1.7 million, the high number being inclusion of the Border States, and assuming 900,000, the mean number of the estimates, went to war at the maximum that leaves you with 344,000 illiterate from the man power pool or 38% of the army if all enlisted. If at bare minimum 62% could read and write don’t you think they read the papers and literature of the day. Why wouldn't they know what was going on? Again there is a long way from 62 percent to 1 percent and you have provided nothing to support your theories just started to bad mouth me.
If you read other posts, if you can, you would realize that I was born not far from Murf and raised in northern and southern B.C. What draft was I avoiding? What government G.I. bill? I made the equivalent of 150,000 a year in today’s money and sent myself through a private school at ~26K/year in today’s money.
I was not always trying to follow God and I did a lot of things that I am not proud of. Goading young marines in Vancouver into the first swing is not one of them. I started entering the bars at 16 and was never questioned. From working in the wood I looked much older. I also took marshal arts training and played hockey and rugby. Scrapping in the area I grew up was common place. With a bunch of loggers and fishermen it was a rough society. I lived in NE five years, just a few miles from Vermont, believe me it is a kinder gentler society.
Falling on the west coast the odds of being killed was one in one hundred per year. I was part of the first group to log with choppers in B.C. It was a learning proposition at this point and more dangerous than falling or High line work, which I had worked on previously. I saw friends hurt and a few killed. Odds of being terminated in Vietnam were 2% for the 15 years of the war. I spent 4 years working in the woods or 4%, probably or higher if I consider the work and the number of times I was with in a hairs breadth of being killed and the higher risk work I did.
I have no idea what ratios of benzene and polystyrene you were using for Napalm B. We used the old formula modified, diesel oil and natural rubber. We had a lighter on the end of the spigots and need it to flow deeper into the vegetation. We mounted them as drip torches under a chopper and used it on back backs. We used nitrates and diesel with a small stick of cut dynamite with the igniter. When you are blasting a lot of granite it pays to be cheap.
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Mississippi - state of mind
Denis: I see no problem with a literacy exam today for voting rights. You graduate high school, have a reading comprehension test and are given the right to vote. Theoretically everyone now has a chance to attend school. It might give them added incentives not to graduate people who can not read and for people to learn to read. The same thing should apply to citizenship.
Naturally both would require that the US designate English (or some other language) as the official language, something that the legislative branch of the government has not gotten around to in the last 230 years.
My point concerning MS was the white population could read and had schools. The black population could not and did not have the opportunity to schools. They had just been given their freedom. In the first election after the war the first black Congressmen were sent from MS. In Mississippi there were more slaves than white. The law was intent on having the black population remain subservient to the white. It is pretty hard to build schools for the people when you have no say in government.
The heart of it is that the average white man in MS must have been able to read. It would have been extremely difficult to pass a law that excluded the bulk of the white population and the bulk of the black. Naturally this contrary to what the plane polisher thinks.
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